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Swimming Question of the Week - August 19, 2009

Posted by Barbara Hummel on Aug 19, 2009 12:16PM (3,234 views)

A bit of market research this week... about flutter kick.

Seems like every time we publish a drill/video on flutter kick, it generates a lot of interest. We'll do more things with flutter kick, but tell us what you'd like to see or learn, or what kinds of flutter-kick problems you need to solve as a coach or swimmer.

Also, to get some absolutely great footage (with commentary) on flutter, dolphin, and breaststroke kick, pick up our full-length DVDs. Kicking is something that every one of these athletes works on all the time, and they talk about their technique on the videos.

dolphin, kick, flutter kick

Responses

Tomás	Responded Aug 19, 2009 08:08PM Hi Barbara... I really think that kicking (flutter kicking) remains a mystery a big mystery. Just take Biederman in Rome. He kicked as hard and fast as he could in the 200m. freestyle..but in the 400m. race (were he established a new WR) he looked exactly as a TI swimmer. So should the kick be used for propulsion, for balance or for both?
Glenn Mills	Responded Aug 19, 2009 08:11PM If I'm not mistaken, he established a new WR in the 200 also. I'm pretty sure that would be called race management... not so much a mystery.
Tomás	Responded Aug 19, 2009 08:34PM Well...that is my point Glenn! Yes he set a new WR in 200m. (1.42.00) with an average time of 25.50sec. for each length of 50m. and in the 400m. race (3.40.07) for an average time for each 50m. length of 27.51sec. So do you believe that 2 sec. differential is due exclusively to the kick?
Glenn Mills	Responded Aug 19, 2009 11:06PM You're kidding right? I would imagine, as crazy as it sounds... that the differential could potentially be to the race being twice as long. Just a wild guess there.
Tomás	Responded Aug 19, 2009 11:33PM C'mon Glenn... Just tell me if you think that the kick should be for propulsion, balance or both!
Glenn Mills	Responded Aug 20, 2009 12:05AM Hey Tomas... crazy thought here... answer Barbara's question about how the kick impacts YOUR stroke. Why don't you hop in the pool, experiment with your flutter kick, and tell us if it's about balance, or propulsion for you, since that's what you've seemed to narrow it down to. If you want to know about Biedermann... ask him... don't post it here. As for me, Barbara, as you know, I've been working like a dog on developing a 6-beat kick that's easy to maintain for all distances. It's been many months, but I really think I'm getting the hang of it. Edited Aug 20, 2009 12:08AM
Tomás	Responded Aug 20, 2009 03:05PM Sorry..I got it wrong then. I thought we were supposed to express what we would like to hear or learn. In my experience I think its about BOTH (balance and propulsion) and that was reinforced with the Kara Lynnn-Joce and Tucker's DVDs.
Glenn Mills	Responded Aug 20, 2009 03:12PM I accept your apology.
RichieFR	Responded Aug 20, 2009 07:18PM Hi, couldn’t resist posting on this one. As a late starter (45 yrs old, swimming for 3 years in a masters group, ex runner/ cyclist) I totally lack ankle & foot flexibility. A flutter kick set is a nightmare especially in a 50m pool! Thights exploding, calf cramp and being left way behind despite the effort. After 3 years I can now manage 50m without stopping. However I have no problem keeping up with fins on, and I’m up front in breast stroke kicking sets. For sometime I have been trying “Barbara’s cute socks stretching routine!” and stretching / sitting on my feet. Some progress at last, starting to feel a bit of a whip & feels better with a 2 beat kick. Pointing toes give me calf cramp, relaxing ankles is better for me as is touching big toes. Thanks for the great video, very helpful.
Barbara Hummel	Responded Aug 20, 2009 07:23PM Hi Richard. Thanks for the post. What do you mean by "touching big toes?"
RichieFR	Responded Aug 20, 2009 07:50PM Well rotating both feet inwards until the big toes touch seems gives a flatter more effective surfce to push on.
Tomás	Responded Aug 20, 2009 08:12PM That's for the breaststroke kick!!!!!
RichieFR	Responded Aug 20, 2009 09:05PM Another question - with a poor kick (lack of flex) is it worth trying to learn the 6 beat kick, maybe just for better balance even if it doesn't really help for propulsion ?
Glenn Mills	Responded Aug 20, 2009 09:53PM I'd say no. Imagine that every time you kick, there's the potential to slow yourself down. I'm going to go with KICK LESS. As stated in the video, keep your feet high and out of the way. See how much a wetsuit helps and where your feet are... then, if you can keep them high enough, train with a pull buoy to help you focus on how you'd like your body to ride when you have a wetsuit on. All kinds of tricks, so do what you have to to continue moving forward.
camy	Responded Aug 21, 2009 08:56AM What I'd like to see on video : 1) Flutter kick : at real speed in sprint, at real speed in training (hope it is lower intensity), and slow motion to analyse each move. All of this at different angles (underneath, above, behind...). 2) Breaststroke kick : idem, plus dry land exercises to show where and how to get more flexibility. Also pointing exactly where propulsion applies : during the pull (heels) and during legs closing. 3) Dolphin kick : idem plus movement analysis and impact of changes in the width of legs or in the amplitude. 4) Training : give examples of minimum times andlaps for getting an efficient kick, because the problem in kick training is that everyone starts ok but as the legs are getting quickly sore everyone adopts a low tempo kick (nobody dares to sprint..) which is surely not efficient. Please take into account that we don't have big-paddle-feet like Phelps ! Hint : ask Cinderella to perform the drills, she is said to have small and dainty feet. If she can, we can ! What I'd like to learn : EVERYTHING quoted above.
BillySwims	Responded Aug 21, 2009 09:50AM From a personal note I am only interested in freestyle and 'fly. I have no interest what-so-ever in breast of backstroke (I am too old to learn nor care). In free I've spent a lot of time this summer holiday trying to get a "better" kick - doing lots (around 600M, which is probably 600M more than I'd usually do) kicking in sets of 25 and 50M. Things I have noticed, kicking absolutely "kills" me - my legs go rubbery after a couple of fast/intensive repeats - this is the same feeling I get swimming 100FR flat out. So I'd like to know how to get a more sustainable kick going (and I probably know the answer). The second thing I notice and would like more info about is my body position. Kicking with my little speedo board, I can get good (great) body position for 25M - I'm streamlined, my hips are high and for 25M my kick is good. But then I turn and the second length (certainly the last 15M or so) my body position is rubbish and I am kicking up a steep hill. So, again I am looking for ways to get rid of that portion/habit of my kick. And finally some stuff on re-integrating your kick back into your stroke would be useful. I've purposefully not been doing that this summer as my plan had been to build my kicking fitness up. But when I am back training for the Autumn/Winter Masters meets then this kind of info would be useful. Just for the record, max effort with a board I am 21/22s 25M and 47s for 50M. Without a board I have just (earlier this week) managed a 19s 25M.
camy	Responded Aug 21, 2009 10:37AM Congratulations Billy. At the end of a kicking set, are you still 20s 25M ??? Must be funny overtaking struggling freestylers just by kicking. Are you smiling at them, from above your board :-) ?
BillySwims	Responded Aug 21, 2009 10:57AM LOL Camy, When I kick a 19s (or 20s) I am totally and utterly shattered at the end of the pool! And I've only managed 19s just the once! I've been doing my 25M/50M repeats on a big send off (1 - 2 mins) but I need the rest because my legs can't cope. But I am definitely getting faster, because a couple of weeks ago my max would have been 22s.
Lisa	Responded Aug 21, 2009 06:30PM I really liked the video about integrating a six-beat kick into your stroke. I'm a good kicker when I do it alone, and when I swim backstroke, but I'm usually lazy during freestyle and do a one-beat kick (except when sprinting). More stuff on integrating the kick would be awesome.
David	Responded Aug 23, 2009 12:50AM I would like to see something about how to go forward using flutter kick. I have flexible ankles, but that doesn't really help. So, there must be some technique to it that I never discovered, so I would like to see something that shows how to do it right. I think it might also be interesting to see the progression from the old to the new breaststroke kick. This might help some of those coaches out there understand better how to teach it.
Windrath	Responded Aug 25, 2009 01:41AM Glenn - As Lisa asked - demonstrate and comment on are the nuances of how a flutter kick integrates with the hips and pull. Being a great kicker is worthless if the subtleties of timing and integration are missed because the efficiencies and power are lost. I would be glad to help with the video as I have spent the better part of the past 10 years experimenting and watching. And, you are not too far away in NH from Oneonta, NY. :) Paul
Glenn Mills	Responded Aug 25, 2009 11:25AM I'm actually in Maryland. And we have talked about this before: http://www.goswim.tv/entries/2348/freestyl...
wonderboy	Responded Aug 29, 2009 11:49PM I'm sorry I missed this discussion! If only we, as coaches, would have just thought to tell our swimmers to kick more and they can hold fast splits for long races. Let's put it this way, if you're able to hold the same splits on your 400 as your 200, then your 200 sucked. Now, If I could address the elephant in the room for just a moment. Tomas, you do a great job regurgitating information you read in a book, found on the internet, etc. It's clear from your question here, that you have no understanding of simple concepts if you haven't read what other people have said about them. A better way to approach the information you find about swimming is to read as much as possible and form your own opinions. Then you may be able to better understand new concepts when you come upon them. Tell us what you think, don't always ask what Glenn thinks. Then we can discuss the pros and cons on both sides of an issue. Just a suggestion, you can either accept it or take it as an attack on your character. I'm here to help.
Gareth	Responded Aug 30, 2009 08:41AM If a swimmer has good velocity from flutter kick on back should they also be able to get good velocity from flutter kick on front? I have one swimmer in particular who's kick on back is good but on their front it sucks (to put it kindly). With fins they are as capable as anyone else. Their kick is fairly small and beneath the surface. Is it a subtle change in the way they kick or is it maybe confidence? I realise there are lots of variables involved but my brain is telling me that the end results for the same person should be fairly similar. I'm new to coaching so don't all shout at me at once.