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Sports Science Topic

Posted by Jonty Skinner on Mar 17, 2009 10:18AM (3,389 views)

In swimming, the large majority of coaches talk in terms of hand movement and hand patterns, and or use terms like “pulling” when they talk about propulsion in swimming.  In addition to that group, there is a very small select group of coaches who talk in terms of body position and body patterns of movement relative to anchoring points.

Do you have an opinion on one approach versus the other? And if you do, do you have thoughts that you can you share with the readership.




Responses

Responded Mar 17, 2009 05:25PM

For me, I think I've been going through a transition in my own coaching due to "the suits". For many years, I've worked on focusing the athletes I work with on developing a better body position, trying to lead toward a couple points. First, limiting resistance created by poor body position, which then hopefully made whatever propulsion means they already had more effective. Secondly, by positioning their body in a way that allowed for a more powerful connection with the water, wether that be more rotation (or less depending on the athlete), or a deeper press (or less).

Depending on the athlete's level, and how adept they already are at utilizing their bodies, I've started to focus more on force production. However, I may have to revert. The reason I started this transition in my own coaching was mainly due to the suits. With the new suits, the body tends to be able to remain in a better position for a longer period of time, almost taking care of many of the body positioning problems we would spend so much time working on. If that is taken care of, we can really focus more attention on connecting with the water to move forward more rapidly.

Of course, if the suits are banned, or changed, then I'll probably have to change back... but only time will tell.

Responded Mar 17, 2009 05:47PM

I spend a great deal of time getting swimmers to find efficient balance and body positions then move focus into propulsion, starting with the when, where, hows of anchoring, weight shifts and application of force.

Responded Mar 17, 2009 08:33PM

With our younger swimmers I concentrate more on body position on the long axis strokes and more on arm movement or pulling on the short axis strokes. I agree with Glenn that if you have a good body position you are then able to achieve better anchoring points and also limit resistance. However, discussing the topic of anchoring points with a 10 year old is at best difficult. But high school age swimmers can comprehend the concept of anchoring points and then combine that with utilization of large muscle groups for increased efficency.

Responded Mar 18, 2009 01:57PM

Personal opinion...
Anytime we use the term "pulling" when referring to propulsion we create an illusion that propagates the swimmers desire to managed their stroke with their hands and or lower arms. Since the brain is wired with more neuronal computing power connected to the extremities that manage feel, the swimmers brain will have a tendency to seek out that kind of propulsion management or motor unit recruitment patterns. By teaching them in those terms, you cater to what the brain prefers, and will over time have to break down the brains desire to maintain that sense of feel. As in managing propulsion by catching, pulling and then pushing with the hands so to speak.

Having said that… I totally agree with those readers who have posted thoughts, since all have talked about body balance and position prior to accentuating propulsion… which is critical, and so just wanted to throw that “pulling” thought out there since even if you’re dealing with young age groupers, you have to find a way to help them “get it” without having to explain the science behind it. As in asking kids to count the gold fish at the bottom of the pool below them, just to help them get a sense of keeping their eyes focused on the bottom and in that way getting a sense of correct head position in freestyle. Or as Jack Nelson did back in the days… string a rope across the pool about 20 inches below the surface & ask his swimmers to swim down it. It might not produce the best mechanics, but it will develop a sense of what anchoring is about.

Responded Mar 18, 2009 11:37PM

I can't believe my eyes...Glenn is backing off from FORCE!!!
Having said that in my personal expreience I have found that it is almost imposible to separate the balancing, posturing and anchoring act from the propulsion one and in fact this happens to be one of the most difficult things to "feel".
One thing is to balance, posture and anchor ones body at a relaxed pace...but the moment you start to kick harder and/or more rapidly and yes "pulling" harder you need to rebalance, repostur and reanchor yourself...I have to press more into the water at higher velocities...so I try to keep it simple as Mr. Greg Rohdenbaugh says...in swimming the most propulsion and the least resistance is what we are going for.

Responded Mar 19, 2009 12:54AM

Uh... what are you talking about Tomas... "I've started to focus more on force production."

Responded Mar 19, 2009 04:58PM

I tend to keep the body position and pull separate when going over them. I do however try to communicate the connections when I see one aspect affecting the other. I feel that anchoring positions causes the swimmer to not apply power during the pull where focusing on the hand/forearm unit allows them to apply more power while thinking, which isn't easy to do to begin with imo.

I don't like the term anchoring since that sounds like they are not pulling at all just getting into positions like they are posing for a picture.

However I do think that there needs to be a form of communication to communicate the connection between where the body is and how the rotation and such affects the arm pull, but I tend to adapt what I do with the swimmer to the situation. I try to stay away from only teaching one way of thinking about techniques.

Responded Mar 19, 2009 07:15PM

Not everyone sees the picture the same way and in this sport there seems to be many different paths up the mountain. This is my path as I have learned it through the years from the many people who took the time to teach it to me. I introduced the term “anchoring” since it isn’t used much in the sport and I would hope that more coaches and swimmers would gain a better understanding of the difference between the terms “anchoring” and “pulling”. When I spend time with swimmers, one of the first things I try to teach them when talking about freestyle, is that they don’t swim with their arms, they swim with their body. That of course gets a huge “what they heck???… you need to cut back on the coffee”. I then ask them if they have ever paddled in a kayak… maybe a few raise their hands and I’m still confronted with quizzical looks. I say the concept of freestyle is very similar to paddling a kayak. You anchor the blade in the water, then drive the opposite side of the body against that anchor to propel the boat past the anchor point. In doing this you can use your legs and feet if you have toe grips. Freestyle as I said, is very similar, and in this you set the anchor, and then use angular momentum to rotate the body and throw the opposite side against that anchor to propel the body past that anchor point. So there is very little pulling per se, and the more we teach swimmers how to swim with their body, the more swimmers we will have using first class levers versus second class levers, and the end result will be more efficient and more powerful swimmers.

I have a number of proprioceptive land drills that I use to illustrate this point. This helps the idea to sink in… they get a sense of how to use their body to generate propulsive forces. I have also asked freestylers to swim with a broomstick in their hands. In essence think of the broomstick as a kayak paddle & their body as the boat. So set the anchor point on the left side, and then drive the body forward, by rotating the body & pushing the right side or right side of the stick forward to get the sense of how the left anchor is connected to the throwing or as in kayaking… pushing motion on the right side. It’s a simple proprioceptive drill that I’d suggest you try yourself before you ask a swimmer to do it. Make sure that the broomstick is long enough… as in over 6 feet.

If you like this drill and introduce it to your group… please remind that bunch that the broomstick isn’t a weapon or a light saber for that matter… things can get ugly if you don’t set some rules up in advance.

Responded Mar 19, 2009 11:28PM

Mr. Skinner...I started swimming completely convinced that the proper way to swim is the one you have just described...but now almost every coach puts the enphasis on "PUSHING WATER BACK"...so do we pull or do we pass our body by the anchoring point?

Responded Mar 20, 2009 05:45AM

Responded Mar 20, 2009 06:53AM

Hah, just noticed that article was written by you. Very interesting. I don't quite understand the drill and the article and your post bring me to ?????'s.

What is this torque or rotational power that we are getting from the rotation of the body (it seems we are imagining the body rotating about a skewer from head to toe down the center). How is that translated into any form of efficiency or power in the pull or backward motion of the arm or 2nd class lever rotation about the ball and socket shoulder joint of the humerous bone (the lever I suppose). The angular momentum seems to be directly related to the torque which I already don't understand how it helps...

Any light on the subject would help tremendously. Aside from all my confusion of rotational power and levers(where is the 2nd class lever vs the first/what is the fulcrum?) I do understand that the closer the parts of your arm are to your shoulder, the less muscular force will be needed to cause your lever arm to rotate about the shoulder.

I am certainly not the best at dynamic mechanics, but it is probably something simple I'm missing.

Responded Mar 20, 2009 02:11PM

I think that talking/describing in terms of "pulling your arm" is an easier concept to grasp rather than "anchor your arm and drive your body forward." It is like talking of motion in relativistic terms. A person watching a train go by sees that - the train go by; the person in the train can see them self as being still and the outside (including the person on the side) moving. Is that too much for you?

I think that when it comes to science and this sport, there is a lot we do not know and that can make it difficult to swallow concepts. There is also a lot of conflicting information out there. We love to talk about body rotation but I remember reading an article (wish I could find it) where they measured the amount of shoulder & hip rotation and the fastest swimmers had the least amount of rotation.

I like these discussions and think Jonty is a great resource and hope that they continue.

Responded Mar 20, 2009 03:12PM

Billy

I could spend 10 min with you on deck and teach this to you in a very simple manner. Trying to do this via the written word is a lot more complicated.

In 2008 I engaged in an E-mail debate with a scientist as to the use of core stability and body connectivity in freestyle. He was a “puller & pusher” so to speak, and I am an “anchor and thrower”. In all honesty, both work and both have been proven successful. However I might debate the point that the pull/push concept has been successful because it has dominated the landscape with regards to being the technique of choice for many decades. In the early 90s Bill Boomer introduced the concept of 1st class leverage to coaches, and those who bought into and understood the concept saw it as a far more efficient way to produce power in freestyle. At the time I had never been a huge fan of Bernoulli’s principle with regards to propulsion in swimming, and Bill’s concepts were another nail in that coffin. All the early science that looked at propulsion used a hand and forearm the size of King Kong to develop the lift/drag resultant force concepts. Nothing at that time looked at the entire body as one unit all engaged in the process of producing propulsion.

In debating the scientist, I used this analogy. The body is essentially a vessel or platform that you are propelling through the water. You can choose to do this via pulling and pushing off an anchor point with the elbow or shoulder as the fulcrum point of the lever, or you can connect that anchoring point to the core (just below the belly button), and then use angular momentum and body rotation to propel the body past that point to the next anchoring point. The way to do this is by understanding that the vessel or platform has to have a certain level of tension/rigidity or tone in order to reduce drag and be able to connect the left side to the right side. What that means is, that a swimmer has to connect the head, torso, hips and legs into a connected unit that works in harmony. To understand this I have always described these options. You can swim with a body that resembles a nerf noodle, a body that resembles a stiff garden hose, or a body that resembles a broom stick. I use those three because they’re common objects, and it doesn’t take much to imagine how each might react to certain pressures, or move through the water.

First lets look at all three in relation to active or passive drag.
We all know that the broomstick has a very high level of rigidity, travels effortlessly through the water, and creates the least amount of drag. A fairly stiff garden hose would be less rigid, would bend a little, but still carry many of the same qualities with regards to drag. A nerf noodle however would be very slack, bend and break a lot at the joints of the body, and create a lot of drag.
Next lets look at the concept of connecting the left to the right side, or the ability to produce a torque like force. (angular momentum)
If I grip the broomstick with both hands, and then rotate one hand clockwise, the effect of that rotation puts pressure on the opposite hand. This happens because the object is rigid, and by being connected the force is transferred. If I took a stiff garden hose, and did the same thing, I wouldn’t transfer as much force because the garden hose is less rigid, but I would still create a significant amount of torque in the hand that didn’t move. If I did this with a nerf noodle, I could twist the right hand all I wanted, and it would have no effect on the left hand because there is a lack of rigidity in the nerf noodle.

So having said all of that. Is it realistic that a swimmer can create a vessel or platform that resembles a broomstick. Quite possibly, but they might resemble someone in serious need of a restroom and pretty much tensing their whole body to avoid suffering a huge social gaffe. Running around with a very stiff legged gait and struggling to look normal. I use that colorful description because a person in that dire state uses their stomach muscles to clamp down on the offending areas. So although this action might produce rigidity or body tone as I call it, it isn’t very functional… well unless you’re trampling grannies to get to the loo.
Is a stiff garden hose more realistic? In my mind it is. It is flexible enough to set anchors, create angular momentum, and do all of that without restricting the fluidity of the muscles. You’ll make the core the source of power, and you will involve the major muscle groups in the action.
Is a nerf noodle the way to go?… sure you can pull and push your way forward, but your power base will be limited to the shoulders and arms, and you won’t involve the major muscle groups in the action.

Before the body suit evolved into the current body connecting, body floating device that’s changed this sport forever, most swimmers in the world swam like nerf noodles. Today, you can put on a new suit, have no concept of the garden hose option, and be right in the thick of it with zero training to effect that option. So with the new suits producing rigidity via compression… swimmers are gaining velocity without even training for it… without even understanding what it does for them. They are one step away from producing angular momentum and being the astute athletes they are (at the elite level) they know instinctively that by anchoring they can create efficient and effective power. The term efficient is important, because as we know, the difference the suits make is more on the back end of races than the front end, and using the major muscles groups in a connected and fluid manner has a lower metabolic cost (anecdotal thought) than the pre suit option.

So in a round-a-bout way I hope I have helped you see that by swimming with your body in a connected way that produces a fairly rigid platform, that you can connect the anchoring point to the opposite side of the body, and by rotating, and throwing the opposite side forward with the arms, or down with the hips, you can create enough pressure on the anchor to let the body slide by that anchoring point.

It would be best if you took a broomstick, a garden hose & a nerf noodle and tried the hand rotation thing to get a sense of what I’ve said… then take the broomstick and place your arms very wide, and then “swim like you’re paddling a kayak” to take connecting the left and right sides into the water… once again, make sure you have rules in place to avoid some ugly collateral damage.

I hope this helps.
Ps Tomas... you need to get back to being a garden hose… just my 2 cents.

Responded Mar 20, 2009 04:58PM

Thanks!!!

Responded Mar 20, 2009 06:01PM

Suppose I have gone off topic of the original question, maybe still on the edge of the topic hah.
So I don't think that quite hit it home on the rotational thing.

The rigidity is very understandable since a floppy noodle body acts more like damper to the power you apply during the pull. I suppose this rigidity could also be maximized when the hips are in more of a line with the shoulders, making the body in a more natural aligned position with the most strength and therefore rigidity.

I agree 100% with the compression giving people the improved rigidity, I also think that it is helping to teach them just how important it is, which is why sub elite level swimmers are probably seeing more improvement than the top guys.

I'll try and get some video this weekend and play around with the broom stick and ponder the angular momentum.

I can put together an image of Ryan Lochte, Aaron, and Popov's techniques where their body stays on the same plane through most of the pull and they display a very rigid body until maybe the final portion of the press phase and then the shoulders are tending to rotate independent of the hips to some degree and connect again at the next catch, or anchor point as you refer to it maybe? Is this a good way to imagine the anchor point concept. Sort of turning your body into the hose for a transition to the next stroke and "anchoring" or solidifying your body from the catch to just before the finish of the push phase?

I think I'm getting this lingo! All that is left is the angular momentum. I considered creating a wiki website to help explain these concepts. I am always left thinking that these concepts are more dynamic than they seem.

Responded Mar 20, 2009 06:35PM

Angular momentum would be the use of one side (say right side) to create a force that when connected through the core and would apply pressure to opposite or left side. In freestyle this would be the throwing motion of the recovery arm in conjunction with the downward hip and connected shoulder roll that applies pressure to the anchor. So as the connected body torques against the anchor, a swimmer can use the recovery or throwing motion of the opposite side to add pressure to that anchor.

On the side, you mentioned Peirsol, Lochte and Popov as an examples of flat body positions with little rotation. I'd be careful about using the terms rigid and flat in the same context. They are very different. Noting that their shoulders and hips break is good since that's part of the nerf noodle syndrome... breaking the line between the shoulders and the hips, is breaking the connectivity, and in doing so breaking the connection to the core. Anyway, you mentioned Aaron, so it leads me to next weeks question which I think will be interesting in light of the discussion this week. Which has gone on all the way to Friday... which is good... this stuff usually dries up around Wednesday

Responded Mar 20, 2009 06:43PM

Real quick... if you take a ball and throw it in the air using an arm action that starts at your side with your hand next to you hip, and then follows the plane of the body upwards (kinda like fly recovery), you'd get it to a certain height. If you used your opposite arm to swing down in the same plane but in the opposite direction you'd gain more height out of your throw, you'd be using angular momentum. Kinda like a fast bowler in the sport of cricket, or a pitcher in baseball... that cricket comment shows my commonwealth roots... hopefully it helps those who know that sport more than baseball.

Responded Mar 21, 2009 05:19AM

Your getting down to every little way to produce power, fantastic!

That is probably a good point to this topic about needing to utilize all methods to give the individuals your teaching or if your learning yourself, the big picture of the reactions and actions.
Speaking of Aaron, I have heard in his video and other places he tries to use the abdominal muscles along his side to create power. Hopefully that doesn't spoil the next topic, but I think that would be another great one :) Thinking of all this reminds my why it is so incredibly hard to consistently swim fast....

Responded Mar 21, 2009 10:20PM

hey tomas you saying "swimming the most propulsion and the least resistance is what we are going for" sound right but its not easy to master this - I have try my hardest but its seems someone who swim for years and still very young like Phelps, Rice, Capell can do this so easily - i am so jealous at moment

Responded Mar 25, 2009 03:19AM

It's great to see the feedback on this sports science topic.Science is starting to revolutionize/evolve the sport and its time to jump on the wagon.We talk about "The Perfection of Connection" everyday during our rehearsal session. Did I tell you guys about the time it took me 15 min to teach my kids how to crawl in dryland?I think that A.M must be taught to swimmers 1st on land and them in the water.(lots of bands and med balls.)

Responded Mar 29, 2009 05:26PM

As a coach, I always try to get my athletes to think in terms of total body efficiency while swimming. Although, pulling and kicking is very important in swimming just thinking in these terms limits the effectiveness of training for any of the four competitive strokes.
I often, explain to my athletes that thinking of swimming as just kicking and pulling through the water is an inefficient way of training. Body position, along with kicking, and the anchoring of the hands and arms in relation to forward propulsions enables a swimmer to maximize his/her effort in training and Swimming, while utilizing all of the body, in the pursuit of speed in the water.
Case in point, I have a swimmer in my program who is naturally gifted in stroke development in the back, breast and freestyle, however, when it came to swimming the butterfly stroke she was unable to keep her forward propulsion going and thus lost speed and form while training and competing.
As, I studied her stroke I noticed that she kept losing her timing while swimming the stroke, after each swim she would often say her lower back muscles hurt or spasm during training or competition. Her lack of abdominal strength was directly related to her problems while swimming the fly. Once she increased her core strength routine she dramatically improved her stroke technique and speed. Consequently, she also increased her efficiency in her other strokes as well.
So yes, I am a strong proponent of total body position and body pattern of movement relative to anchoring points and total core strength. It’s just as important as training all the energy system to maximize swimmers efficiency while training and racing.
Coach Tarzan

Responded Apr 07, 2009 06:35AM

I suppose at 1:50ish in this video the broom demonstration exsts about "angular momentum" through rigidity.


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